#10 Belonging + Black Masculinity

Apr 25

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In this episode, Dr. Mona speaks with guest Marvin Toliver to discuss belonging in the realm of Black masculinity. Marvin is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) who was born and raised in Oakland, California. He currently lives in Philadelphia, where he serves as a therapist at Radical Therapy Center. He is the co-founder of the mental health collective Melanated Social Work. Marvin is a queer (Bi-sexual) Black creator, writer, consultant, public speaker, mentor, wedding officiant, and radical educator. He encourages others to see the power within themselves and use their voices to fight for justice.

First, Marvin shares his identities to which he is most connected. He identifies as Black and African American, which he says is what people see. He was raised to be proud of this identity. He also identifies as Bi-sexual, about which he wasn’t always very proud or open. Now, he speaks very openly and proudly about this identity. Growing up in a Black community in the 90’s and early 2000’s in Oakland, being heterosexual was the norm and homophobia was rampant. He didn’t play football because he was afraid he’d be found out as being Bi-sexual. He also grew up in the church. Society, sports culture, and church, along with his family, were all telling him that homosexuality and queerness were wrong. He tried to “pray the gay away,” which led to intense internal conflict that almost led to a high level of suicidality in middle school. He tried to behave according to an idea of who he was supposed to be – got good grades, acting masculine based on his understanding, straight, never got in trouble, got along with everyone, people pleaser. This led to his not even knowing who he really was. He was silently exiled without even actively being exiled and stopped doing things he loved, such as football. This created a fragmented sense of self. Dr. Mona points out that the more environmental dis-ease one experiences, the more they feel like they are not a whole person because only parts of them are showing up.

Next, Marvin shares his definition of masculinity growing up. He learned masculinity from his dad and also martial arts. In his mind, masculinity meant being a strong Black man, mentally and physically. Masculinity didn’t simply mean being straight, but also having multiple girlfriends by being a “ladies’ man.” Playing sports like basketball, football, and baseball were also very masculine. He liked to play volleyball which was considered a girl’s sport, and wasn’t seen as masculine. He started to question himself and his own masculinity because it didn’t fit 100% into the societal view of Black masculinity. This caused him to question whether or not he was masculine enough and who he was. When he went to college, he saw white men hugging each other and having more freedom with one another. It was different than he ever experienced in Oakland. There seemed to be freedom of expression and a different level of intimacy. Marvin explains that Black intimacy is different, in that he and his Black male friends bonded over similar interests. However, Marvin says sometimes men will “bond” over football without necessarily understanding the rules of the game. Sometimes bonding and intimacy where he grew up felt like more of a performance or what you’re supposed to bond over – it wasn’t always authentic.

Then Marvin shares his experience getting the HIV diagnosis. He was living in Boston at the time and regularly getting tested. He went home to Oakland and the doctor’s office called to ask if Marvin could come into the office. Marvin was out of town, so the doctor called back in an hour and told him the results were abnormal. Marvin asked out of the abnormal results, how many people actually tested positive for HIV and the doctor said roughly 98%. Marvin fell on the floor and cried right as his mother arrived home. They were both crying and she was holding him, while the doctor was on the phone saying he was so sorry and would call back with next steps. He told his mom, “I tried to do everything right.”

The version of himself that he thought he was supposed to be and the real version of himself who was facing internal chaos were finally forced to integrate, which became very scary and uncomfortable. He chose to tell people the truth about how he got HIV and who he got it from. He could have chosen to say he got it from a woman, but he decided to have some agency and stop the lying. He had been lying up until that point, and it had been exhausting. To him, lying had always been safer than being truthful about himself. He previously thought that if he told people the truth about his sexuality, he would be abandoned and rejected. Ironically, when he was not being himself, the folx who were closest with him could only get so close. This isolated him and he worried if his family and friends would still love him after knowing the truth, or only love those parts of him they found lovable. However, it would only continue being more exhausting if he tried to continue lying, so he started telling people he was Bi-sexual. After a month or so of being on medicine, he was undetectable, which means that so little of the virus was in his system that it can’t be detected.

After this pivotal experience, Marvin started to question why he had felt so much pressure to hide parts of himself, and started questioning what Black masculinity could look like. So he started to do more research to better understand how white supremacy, Christianity, and colonialism shape our understanding of masculinity. Now, what Black modern masculinity means to him is whatever he wants it to be.

Finally, Marvins shares that belonging to him means that you’re in a community where even your physiological needs will also be met. If you don’t have something, someone will provide it to you. When you belong, you are a piece of them, too. You become part of them and part of them becomes part of you on a spiritual level with energies intertwined because the connection is so strong.

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1:06 - Dr. Mona introduces today’s guest, Marvin Toliver.

5:12 - Marvin shares his identities that he is most connected to.

7:41 - How did those different parts of yourself come to a collison?

13:24 - What was your definition of masculinity growing up?

15:46 - What specifically made those things Black masculine?

18:19 - Is it an authentic bond or what you’re supposed to bond over?

20:41 - Marvin shares his experience getting the HIV diagnosis.

28:08 - How did the lying create barriers to your own sense of belonging?

30:42 - What does Black, modern masculinity mean to you now?

36:40 - What does belonging mean to you?

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